Crib notes:
ARES Armor sold around 5000 80% AR-15 Lowers… ATF wanted customer names (because California?). ARES SAID piss off… then this happened on March 15th:
Yea they got all up in ARES Armor’s ass alright. Ouch.
Summary: ATF will do whatever it wants to do. Deal with it bros.
Some pictures and more information over at Dailymail.
I didn’t even realize they were in Oceanside, CA. I was there with my family this Christmas a few blocks away.
Vigilant Spectre weighs in (not a fat joke because he’s actually quite trim now):
Not looking into the camera is so artsy, I love it.
Spectre is wearing the Restricted LE/Gov Use Only t-shirt from ENDO Apparel.
So what’s the deal guys… is this going to end well for ARES Armor? For freedom as a whole?
Comments
75 responses to “ARES Armor ATF Raid”
It’s nice to know that our goverment doesn’t exactly have to follow it’s own laws. So comforting that they exclude themselves from following their own rules. And people say we’re paranoid.
“Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government, but illegal for the citizenry” – Thomas Jefferson
That is a false quote invented out of thin air. Thomas Jefferson did not say that.
http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/tyranny-defined-which-legal-government-quotation
Something tells me there is more going on here. Either we’ll find out in the next few weeks or months that Ares did something like make .30 cal clip ghost guns, or there will be a massive lawsuit that will put a giant thorn in their side. Regardless it’s not good for any of us, and it seems California is the test bed for what they can get away with.
I just bought an 80% 308 lower from them too. *puts on tin foil hat*
that just goes to show you that 80o/o of the govt. is against us owning guns to defend ourselves from them. war is when you defend yourself against another country/outside threat, tyrany is when you have to defend yourself and family from your own govt. welcome to the good ussar. they can have my guns when they take them from my cold dead fingers! and that should be every legal, honest gun owner should say to the govt. RIGHT NOW! and all you that are in police/sherrifs dept’s better join in with the people because when all hell breaks loose thier familys and friends/affiliates WILL BE TAEGETED by the other half of gun owners that are the real problem with the atfb. trust me when I say even the prisons are building up thier swat type assault teams. at least that is in good ol comunist california. thanks arnold/jerry you two made gray davis look like a saint! there ain’t no better country than USA defend your constitution! I personally have at least 2 ancestors that signed, and that is family. no more dems. scrrrrrewing up congress GET THEM OUT no i did not say replace them with republickers either. all they did the last few years is kiss democrat butt!
BATFE claimed they made 100% Lowers, then reverted back to the 80% by pouring in the polymer slug when in fact (BATFE had already approved the process and knew ahead of time their warrant was based on falsehoods which is how Ares obtained the restraining order) they form the lower around the slug of polymer. At no time is the lower any higher than 80%.
Are there any specifics regarding what justification the ATF is using to demand records from Ares? I thought sales records were off limits to the ATF.
I understand the ATF is using a place called EP Armory as their basis for the raid on ARES ARMOR. EP makes, or MADE the polymer lowers that ARES was selling. ATF is saying the polymer lowers are first made to 100% lower then add a second color of polymer to fill in the trigger cavity, thus making it a 80% lower. This, according to the ATF means it was and is still a 100% lower receiver and for it to be sold it requires a serial number and for those selling them, be an FFL holder, to which EP nor ARES are. EP say they inject both the trigger cavity material then the outer in the same process. Looking at the lower, you can see the mold marks on the outside of the lower and the injection point with slag covering the trigger cavity material indicating the outer material was injected just seconds after the trigger material. Oh and these are not 3D printed lowers.
There continues to be confusion over the sale of the aluminum 80% lowers out of ARES whether those lowers are legal are not. Where that is coming from I’m not sure.
As far as the customer list is concerned, ATF wants that to, supposedly, obtain the polymer lowers from said customers. Or in my book, intimidate legal gun owners.
It is somewhat unnerving the ATF would just rip into a guys store just before they opened to take his inventory and steal his customer list. Looks like America took a seriously rutted dirt road in 2008 and in 2012 we’re headed toward the cliff and there ain’t no guard rail.
I’m not a huge Nutn fan, but his interview with the Ares owner was pretty good.
At one point, the Ares owner said that while he was serving in Iraq, he came to the realization that the people in Iraq now had more personal freedom than we do here in the states. That hit home for me. Sad.
Personal freedom and quality of living are two different things. I don’t think anyone here wants to go live in Iraq to exercise their personal freedoms.
I’ll take dangerous freedom over safe slavery any day.
Fuck the ATF. Those Nazis can go eat a bowl of dicks.
The ATF was arguing that the polymer lowers were being built out fully, and then the company re-filled the cavity with polymer, which would have meant that all those lowers were “firearms.” Ares said that the lowers were never carved out. ARES got an injunction to prevent the raid. The ATF got a “clarification” from the judge enabling to execute a search warrant pursuant to an “investigation.” ARES knows that what the ATF really want is their customer list, which they now have. The ATF could care less if they are found guilty of any violation because qualified immunity. The individuals will face no real consequences, the agency will not pay the fine, and they have the names they wanted. It’s a win in their book.
Nutnfancy did a 30 minutes long interview with Dimitri from Ares Armor recently, for those who want to hear the whole story. Before that he did another video when he visited them and showed the items that caused it all.
ONLY 30 minutes? wow, must be a record for quickest nutnfancy video ever
Congressional Switchboard Number: 202-224-3121
76th District California State Assembly: Rocky Chavez
49th District Congressman: Darrell Issa
California Governor: Jerry Brown 916-445-2841
Reference: Ares Armor AresArmor.com
RIGHT ON SEB! well said in short hand.
I hate these assholes! Especially the chicom pos agent. Atf agents are either fat white guys, lesbian women, or chicom. Ares armor should have burned that mofo to the ground!
Yep, they need bad things to happen to their faces when they pull this gestapo crap. I look forward to that revolutionary moment when someone on the other side of the door sacrifices themselves for freedom. 4/19/76.
I doubt that. If it were such an important thing in your mind, YOU’D DO IT YOURSELF. Big talk… typical pro-gun coward BS… For decades all this big talk, still no stack of burning ATF bodies like there should be…
what do you mean (someone) don’t you want to join in that fun? war is fighting other countrys against your government and people, tyrany is when you fight the government for your constitutional rights! cant you for hillary? you think barry is so bad, which he is except for gun/ammo manufactures. thanks barak hussein. the “O” word makes me sick and I cant afford a doctor!
Why did they break out the entry team and the rifles?
Did they expect to take fire from a store owner who they knew wasn’t there?
Because all they do is cross the line. They fully expect one day to encounter armed resistance, which should / needs to happen. Just because they wear a badge doesn’t mean they’re doing the right thing. Jackbooted thugs need to start being shot. That’s why they go into every situation armed to the teeth.
SERIOUSLY man, look at these derps. I think they don’t get enough trigger time so they break out the M4 at any opportunity.
They’re trying to stack in front of A PLATE GLASS WINDOW!!! They’re retarded.
no kevlar face guards scared of those famos face shots from gun owners! we are considered criminals first and foremost on these raids. which means that government personell from the top can have all the gun protection they need and have on hand from taxed gun sales from thier own citizens, when does it become a martial state? soon. I thought we were the governments employer? wow my boss never was treated with such disregard, thanks to big shootouts the law enforcement feels everyone is going to do the same first! cowards shoot first and ask questions later. BANG!, stop or i’ll shoot! and I have a badge!
80% receivers are legal but it appears that these may not have been made in a way that meets that standard.
From the article:
“it is legal to build rifles from scratch without serial numbers, but only if the receiver is made to ATF specifications, which the ones Karras sold were not.
Karras says he arranged for ATF agents to pick up the illegal receivers Wednesday morning, but baulked at turning over the names of his customers.”
From the last line is sounds like Karras knew that something was wrong with his product and had agreed to turn over his current inventory. If this is true then the ATF (as much as I hate to say it) was probably legally correct in requesting the list of people who had purchased an “illegal” item.
It sucks that this is the situation but until we can get the laws changed it is the set of rules we have to work with.
Bullshit. Y’all need to inform yourselves of the thuggery that’s going on here. The receivers were initially approved by the ATF, and they then changed their mind after the fact. The ATF raided EP Armory and took their customer list and receivers, until a decision is re-made about them. (Wonder how that decision will go, and if they’ll give EP Armory any money since they’ll destroy their initially “approved” source of income) The Mexican arms dealers (ATF) then began pressuring Ares Armory for their customer list, as well as picking up the EP Armory lowers. Ares told them they could come pick up the receivers, but to go fuck themselves on the customer list. The gestapo thugs obtained a search warrant with false information (lied to the judge). Ares showed they had used incorrect/false information, Judge granted an injuction against the American Tyrant Force. Problem solved, right? Nope. They pressured/threatened/bribed the judge into changing her ruling and they then raided Ares Armory. For the ATF agents (that I support with my tax dollars) reading this board, go fuck yourselves.
A-fucking-plus. This is what they do. They are so full of shit it isn’t even funny. How the fuck did the 80% reciever even get on the market to begin with if it was illegal? Oh, that’s right it WAS LEGAL. So now these assholes get to go fishing for information while holding people at gunpoint right? And that’s A-OK? Yeah fuck that. These fucking scumbags are fucking traitors to this nation and it’s people. I don’t see how it is even up for debate.
Fer Christs sake these are the same motherfuckers that have been implicated in running guns across the border. The same firearms that later kill Americans. And these assholes try to use their own criminality to strip people of their unalienable rights! They are CRIMINALS. Stop standing up for them.
I totally agre any time the legislature in cal. repeatedly make (MORE ANTI GUN LAWS) look up the (firing line) for all the laws that are up for vote by your favorite traitor! I belive there is around 55 new anti gun laws coming up cal. the first communist state! and thats just the begining. AND… IF YOU ARE AN EVEN LIFE MEMBER JOIN THE CALIFORNIA PISTOL AND RIFLE ASSN. asap. help them and the nra fight through political channels. I know it’s slow but we are acctually making progress, we need your support! thank you life member nra,crpa,member of pvf and ila. do something positive or don’t fricken sit there online and bitch. (female dog in heat) sorry wrong metafor but you know what I am getting at.
‘…. they then changed their mind after the fact. …’
my money is on someone higher up the political mucky muck chain making a different ruling and forcing their op back down the throats of whomever in the Dept made the first
decision about these parts.
that said – once a part is 100% it’s regulated differently and Ares should did
know that was the case. maybe a lawsuit by customers who were sold a
defective piece of merchandise and bring a class action
against the Areas firm against their liability insurance policy is due.
He agreed to turn them over since the ATF raided the original manufacturer of the polymer lowers in question, and have declared them to be ‘illicit’. If he refused, two things would have happened….
A. He would be individually liable and tried and likely convicted, of at least interfering with …. blah blah…
B. The store would have been shut down dead cold without a doubt, assets seized.
Why did Ares even keep sales records, especially when they knew the ATF wanted them? They are under no obligation to record personal information for each sale (cash sales, for example).
Also wondering why they needed guns and an entry team. Was the customer list expected to fight back? Why not just walk in and hand them the warrant papers, give them an opportunity to comply?
My guess is they are talking online and credit card sales. Not keeping those I’m assuming would be considered tax fraud… I could be wrong though.
Not actually true. As a small business owner, you don’t have to keep track of any customer information at all. For tax purposes, it is enough to keep track of:
1.) what you brought in as inventory
2.) what you sold and how much sales tax got paid
3.) what inventory you have left.
Nobody needs to keep names/credit-card numbers or any of that stuff. You could simply enter each name as Blah-1 to Blah-N. As long as you have the three pieces of information I listed, you’re good to go.
Ah ok… either way if ARES accepted credit cards (which they did), I’m sure the ATF could easily get all the information they wanted from whoever ARES has their merchant account with.
Payments by methods other than cash, especially online sales, you need to keep at least some records to ensure certain quality of customer care. Now as far as credit card records, many companies don’t keep detailed receipts/purchase/order information with that info. Usually name, addy, total amount at least for 90 days.
Yea ARES may not keep it past 90 days but I 100% guarantee their card processor has it on file forever.
Then let the Feds did up the data.
One thing that blows, Ares sent out an email after the raid telling everyone they where now going to use Encryption to protect their customer data. They SHOULD have been using it before, not a day late and a dollar short.
No doubt… seems funny to even bother sending that email out. As long as the accept credit cards no one is safe from the prying eyes of whichever agency wants to know who they sold to.
There are a number of reasons for retaining a customer list, but probably the most influential is the fact they help maintain the business as a going concern. Customer lists can be extremely valuable, especially when the product is high quality and customer service is a good experience.
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As far as sales leads go, for a good company, previous customers are often as good as it can get. Businesses like this remain going concerns by continually generating new sales. Marketing is expensive. Targeted marketing can be more efficient, but the efficiency is highly dependent on the quality of the targeted group. People who have bought at least once before, in many situations. are likely to buy again.
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Not being able to use your customer list is still do-able if a company can run at a smaller profit margin, or if the market will support price increases. How much extra would you pay for an 80% lower, with a promise that the purchase is anonymous? I’m not sure if that is legal or not…. but the thought exercise is still worthwhile.
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The other option is the customer list could have been kept securely with strong encryption.
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Just the Waffen ATF doing what they do… Nothing to see here, please move along. (/sarc)
Yeah, I will admit that I am not the most flamboyant artsy fag out there so I didn’t pull that off very well. But come on a soild C- for effort right?
Ugh… What a joke.
And by the way, it’s good to know we have VS out there fighting for our rights…. And informing Glock how much their .380 sucks.
“Not looking into the camera is so artsy, I love it.” What’s artsier-fartsier than that? Maybe film their feet while they are talking?
It’s a sad day when pot heads and illegal aliens get more protection from our government than legal citizens looking to legally purchase a firearm, and who are guaranteed the right to bear arms.
I can only hope we get this “reset” started quickly. California has already gone off the cliff, but maybe we can save the other 48, or 49.
Woah, I thought the potus said there were 57+1 states?
sorry hell I have been breathing laquer and toxic paint fumes for over 35 years so my memory isn’t quite up to date on that one. where the hell are the other 8 at, puertorico is the only thing that comes to close to being another state? why don’t we let all the illegals in and move to sunny mexico and screw it up worse than it is now.(all our fault you know) we get the blame for every screwed up country we touch!
I am displeased…
Any chance Area got their data off site before the raid? It seems to me that the looming threat might make that a prudent idea.
Ares.
It’s very cute that a state judge issued a restraining order for a federal agency, but the Supremacy Clause (Article 6, clause 2) of the Constitution trumps state law. The more interesting constitutional question is whether Ares 80% meet ATF specifications . . . or, if they need to.
As Bob R has pointed out, Karras may be stomping on some very thin legal ice here:
“it is legal to build rifles from scratch without serial numbers, but only if the receiver is made to ATF specifications, which the ones Karras sold were not.
Karras says he arranged for ATF agents to pick up the illegal receivers Wednesday morning, but baulked at turning over the names of his customers.”
Karras’s alleged willingness to surrender the “illegal” receivers allows the ATF to argue in court that they were defective, and thus need the names for a recall. Let’s watch and find out.
Dude, inform yourself. These lowers had been previously approved by the ATF. They changed their mind. Like in CT, what was legal one day, is no longer legal. Because they (a non-elected govt entity) said so. F that.
It was not ARES products in question…. It was EP Armory poly 80% lowers in question, ARES was just acting as a major distributor for them.
it is legal to build rifles from scratch? does that include 3-d printing of a colt 1911, because I love them. and all you have to do is build the frame, the rest you can purchase! my baby was born in 1917 and still going strong! I do belive the atf got what they want anyhow, your names and addresses and that was the purpose of the raid.
Supremacy clause doesn’t give government agencies the authority to disobey judicial action at the state level, unless it conflicts with federal LAW. Unless there is a federal law granting the ATF immunity to any and all orders of protection at any level of the court, supremacy clause doesn’t apply here.
Cameron, the ATF will argue that the conflict with federal LAW is manifest, that they do have standing for enforcement. Here’s the clue: Is the DailyMail article correct that Karras has admitted that the receivers were “illegal” and he was willing to surrender them to the ATF? If so, then the ATF doesn’t have far to go in proving their case that they were enforcing a violation of federal law.
I’m not saying it’s just, only that the legal and constitutional concerns are most likely in the ATF’s favor if Karras has made the admissions as quoted. Sounds like he needs a new lawyer.
Listen to an interview pre-raid with Karras:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddWv_2YiQ7g
Fair enough. The supremacy clause has been grossly abused and its “implied” purpose expanded by the courts for a long time.
Yes, I certainly hear you on the abuse that Article 6 can sanction from the federal government! My concern comes from a historical reading in which an influential portion of our founding fathers wanted it that way. . . that not much really needs to be “implied” to swing the heavy fist of the Fed. Shays Rebellion of 1786-7 unsettled colonial financiers, and in response, founders like Alexander Hamilton sought to strengthen federal power to suppress local liberty and revolt when the nation’s political elites — fighting to protect what Hamilton honestly labeled a “mercantilist empire” — thought it necessary. That was an important part of the rational for the supremacy clause, and President Washington’s crushing of the Whiskey Rebellion in 1791 set the precedent for actions all the way down to the ATF raid of ARES. The problem lies at the founding of our republic.
Everyone, listen to an interview pre-raid with Karras:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddWv_2YiQ7g
Here is their scheme in a nutshell: Down is declared illegal. They then tell you up is down. You tell them up is up and down is down. They say they know that but it doesn’t matter. They say down is whatever direction they want it to be.
Thanks for posting this Seb. Interesting that Karras doesn’t mention what was quoted in the Daily Mail: his (alleged) offer to turn over the “illegal” receivers to the ATF. That would be a strange detail for the Mail to get wrong, to conjure out of thin air. It’s also very revealing that Karras ignored most of his legal team to go with the one lawyer with the brashest strategy — we’ll see if that plays out.
Even more importantly, Karras doesn’t mention the sales of 80% receivers to LCG Custom Part and Accessories, a place so sketchy that they had Mexican felon boring out the lowers in the back shop. That’s the crux of the ATF’s case, and I bet any judge presented with that evidence is going to back the ATF on the need to turn over Ares’s records. Bet the state judge who granted Ares their initial restraining order had no idea. Nick over at TTAG has the parts of the story you need to know:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/03/foghorn/ares-armor-search-warrant-sheds-light-reason-atf-raid/
Be careful who you invite to your build party!
No problem. And thanks for your link as well. I guess my initial thoughts are this: It seems that if someone does something bad with a 80% reciever the ATF feels it is justification to attack a source for them. This doesn’t hold up to scrutiny IMHO. If Chevy sells a car to someone who uses it to run people over or to transport crack to people, is it Chevy’s fault? No, it is the fault of the end user. And if Ares Armor asks for clarification in regards to what is being done with said unfinished recievers/or if they ask for clarification in the final completion process does that implicate them in illegal activities? No, it does not.
So it seems there are a few things wrong here. The initial argument was that the polymer 80% lowers were completed as non-serialized lowers and then filled in. This was not the case. The 80% lower was at no time a completed lower and then filled in; rather it was manufactured in such a way so that it was never a firearm. In this scenario a FFL/serial number was never required and nothing illegal transpired. So point one: The polymer 80% recievers are not in play. They are legal. But since they were brought up it shows that the BATFE is reaching for justification in their actions. And of course asking for clarification on what happens after the 80% lower is sold to a customer is not implicit in saying that Ares Armor is completing the manufacturing process for anyone. This in itself is also a gray area. If I use someone else’s jig does that mean they manufactured a reciever for me? What if I ask them a clarifying question in regards to proper drilling or completion? The whole way that the BATFE is giving themselves justification to go on a fishing expedition for information and confiscating things while holding people at gunpoint is completely malicious in nature. This is just my little ;ole opinion, but with the known history of the BATFE…I will side with Ares Armor without question.
you must be talking about the state of cantaffordia,califu@#ya, the chickens are fleeing. I’m staying and we fight all this together. california has a history of letting us buy guns, then after the fact then they get liberals in office, and the laws change and we are all criminals. what do you think the lead ban was, it’s bullshit! now that the dfg changed to the humane socitiy. I used to hunt rabbits when I was very little with my dads iver johnson 22. soon these simple single shot guns will be worthless to hunt small game. california gun laws suck! and if that isn’t bad enough the feds override the states own individual rights too.
Hello everyone,
I new this posting and blogging on crap like this. I hold a ffl to man. Guns, I believe that this person should be held a countable for what his employees do. First thing, he hired a illegal alien with felonies to work in his store. Second, I served 2 tours in Iraq and I believe that phase he said above is bull shit of a excuse. I agree with a comment someone stated above, ” Iraq has more freedoms” if he truely believes this, let him move there. This is one example of how our beloved ar platform “aka the assault riffle” is getting a bad rep. the law clearly states that I can sell the 80% lower and you can do what ever you want. With that beening said, once complete you can own it. BUT, the ATF would like you to put some kind of SN or name on it to identify it if stolen. “YOU CAN NOT SELL IT”. I thought about buying these for my company to finish them legally and in turn sell them at a discounted price. I believe that people who buys these with no SN on them, are buying them for people with a criminal back ground or for some reason can buy one from a store. So come on gun lovers, I know the Obama nation is trying taking our 2nd amendment rights slowly, but please don’t stick up for those who brake the law. We as a nation must stand up and stand by each other. If those people didn’t brake the law then there nothing for them to hide. If they knowing committed those crimes then let them be punished.
Where the fuck did this guy learn English?
I think you are definately right but the ones that are legal want one without any serial #s on them so when the govt./ATFE steals the numbered one they still can protect them selves. but they better stash them somewhere they can’t be found. and that makes everyone that wants to protect themselves and family eventually unarmed from our new opressive govt, and a criminal. hey but you can all live in iraq or any other counry you want, I’m too old and broken to leave. PS I do not even own any ar or ak guns at all I collect antiques mostly, but! I WANT ONE and not for fiting our government. at least for now, who knows next in the white house? hope to god! it’s not hillary or we all might be looking at iraq in a diferent way. or shot dead for owning a gun!
There receivers are in no way illegal! There is a clear polymer plug that’s placed in to the mould before the black is poured. The atf is OK with there lowers every where but CA for some reason. The lowers weren’t even made by Ares, they just sold them. The lowers in question are made by EP armory.
Man I’m so sick of these assholes doing what they want, As a person on that client list the ATF can fuck themselves there is no god damn way its made as a firearm and then filled in (well the made as a firearm part) because then they are stating that the trigger pocket is ready to go, no fuckin way can you seat a trigger in if it wasn’t filled There are deep grooves on each side,even after I have drilled and dremeled the shit out of it its still
Snug going done no to mention the trigger hole isn’t drilled nor the pins for hammer or trigger or even the selector switch Booom Bitch Ass ATF thats 5 functions needed to be done to complete that lower which makes and a PLASTIC PAPER WEIGHT you pieces of shits they are just mad because we as people can do it easier then they would like and cheaper and when they come to take our weapons from us the unserialized weapons will be the wild cards they cant track down unless they start taking stores client lists i can’t wait till we as Americans stand up to this KGB GOVERNMENT we have allowed too be created, i am not a felon and by the second admendment i am allowed to bear arms and for that ATF since you Now have my name just know If you come to take my shit you better suit up because i have to security doors you have to bust down first and when you do I have a 1000rds
Anyone that knows ANYTHING about injection molding knows that Sapper911 is correct. The ATF is just wanting to “hear” what they want, and do what they want – Gun running didn’t work out too well for them, so they want to pick on someone smaller.
Learn to use some damn hard drive encryption people… Damn. These shitbags already threatened to kill me once. They come back again and I’m killing as many of them as I can. Nobody is getting my customer list.
haha “solvent trap adapters” I LOVE IT.
Love how the ATF tries to do everything… Never give up the customer list…
There was this room in Afghanistan. When Special ops broke in it, all they heard was fire. Team 2 went in blind and team 1 were all dead, in a few minutes, team 2 were all dead. Airstrike was called and took care of the entire building. Seems the upper floor was blown out and 4 insurgents were up there firing AKs point blank at the floor below. Fish in a barrel. Lesson to ATF, dont think you cant be taken out.